Best Pitching Staff in the League

YankeeNation12 · Senior Member

Best Pitching Staff in the League

moonraker717 · Senior Member

Wickman? Please it's the ninth inning not a hoogie sandwich. Maybe 5 years ago that argument was valid but if he makes it the whole season, and that is a big if, he will not match the numbers from the second half last year.

This may be a homer move but I have to say the Brewers are looking pretty solid through and through.

The rotation is probably the most locked down heading into Spring Training with Sheets, Capuano, Bush, Suppan and Vargas. If Vargas faulters Villenauva could step out of the pen and will do better than he did last year which wasn't half bad. Obviously Sheets has dominant stuff when he is out there, but that's only if he is out there.

The middle relievers are all young guys with a lot of upside, but I really like Villenuava for 2 innings or so, Shouse is a left specialist horse, and Turnbow WAS lights out. CoCo proved to be worth his weight in gold down the stretch after TBow bombed, and with the best pitching coach in the league in Mike Maddox, you have to believe TBow will rebound. Throw in Matt Wise and Jose Cappellan (who will be closing for someone in 2 years) and thats a pretty solid bullpen

YankeeNation12 · Senior Member

adding together wickmans numbers from last year when he split time with atlanta and cleveland he was 33/37 in save opportunities with a 2.67 ERA, he can eat a hoggie or whatever the hell he wants for the first 8 innings in the pen as long as he's putting up numbers like that for me

as for the brewers, they have more than a few questions with more than a few guys with not too much major league experience. and i think suppan provides a little false confience for that starting rotation. suppan had an ERA over 4 last year and will always be a number 4 starter, although he does pitch well in miller park and he is as durable as they come which will be a bonus with the injury ridden ben sheets.

moonraker717 · Senior Member

The best part of Suppan is you get what you pay for, and I don't think the Brewers are expecting him to continue the run we saw in the post season last year, they just want him to take the ball every 5th day and last to the 6th inning. Considering the disaster the starting rotation was last year, if he can do that, he will be worth the money.

I don't put too much stock in his Miller Park split either, just another one of those crazy splits people dig up.

YankeeNation12 · Senior Member

and with suppan he is a guy that has proven he will go out there and get it done through 6 or 7, with not great stuff but not bad stuff either. he should take some pressure off the bullpen, but whats really going to make or break the brewers staff go this year will be the health of ben sheets. when he's on, he's as good as it gets, but the past few years he's been about as healthy as ken griffey jr.

The MAN · Veteran Member

I'd have to nominate the Oakland A's (if healthy).

The Rotation

Rich Harden - Ace caliber when healthy (almost never healthy though)
Dan Haren - Almost Ace like stuff. A solid #2 man
Esteban Loaiza - Pretty average, but a decent #3 or 4 guy
Joe Blanton - May not have the best stuff, but he has been racking up the wins the past couple of seasons
Joe Kennedy/Brad Halsey - both did good jobs in long relief last year. Either should fill the role of 5th starter capably

Bullpen

Justin Duchsherer (sp?) - an All-star reliever
Huston Street - a good closer, but was worn down/injured last year
Kiko Calero - solid set-up guy
Alan Embree - A really good lefty
Chad Guedin - Did a really good job last year.

On top of that, Oakland has one of the best defenses; which makes any pitching staff better. Chavy has 6 Gold Gloves and counting. Mark Ellis put up record setting fielding numbers last year (and still didn't win a GG?).

Situational Lefty · Veteran Member

For the best staff in the NL, I think I'd go with the Padres or Dodgers, with the Marlins, Brewers and Phillies also in on the conversation.

The Dodgers have Schmidt, Lowe, Penny and Billingsley, all of which should be above average starters.

The Padres have Jake Peavy and Chris Young, two all-star caliber pitchers, and they have a lights out bullpen with Trevor Hoffman and Scott Linebrink.

I wouldn't say the Brewers have the best staff in the NL at this point, mainly because of bullpen questions, but their starting five is hands down the best rotation in the NL Central in my opinion. I like little-known Dave Bush to have a breakout year.

I'm not as big on the Braves. Mike Hampton is still in the league? Can he even have an ERA below 5? They have a great bullpen, but Smoltz is really all they have starting. Hudson is really a shell of his former self.

-- Edited by Situational Lefty at 00:18, 2007-03-02

YankeeNation12 · Senior Member

If I'm not mistaken, I think the Padres resigned David Wells too, who is a guy that goes out there and throws strikes and makes you beat them and even though he is past his prime is still a great 4 starter.

Tim Hudson not throwing the ball well, a little inconsistant, but still dominating stuff.

cubsfan42 · Veteran Member

I like the Padres and Phillies staffs to start the season. Arizona has potential to be a very tough staff as well.

If I had to choose, I would go with the Padres. Peavy, Young, Maddux and Wells along with Clay Hensley,who has pretty decent numbers, should make for a tough starting rotation. I'm not too sure about their middle relief, which they will definitely need when Maddux and Wells are on the hill, but if they can get it to Hoffman consider the game over.

-- Edited by cubsfan42 at 05:24, 2007-03-02

moonraker717 · Senior Member

Just a quick off topic comment on gold gloves since man mentioned it...

is it just me or are gold gloves the most ridiculous individual award in sports. As long as you win one, until you stop playing you will continue to win them. They aren't really based on fielding percentage or anything, just whoever looks like the best defender...I don't pay attention to them at all

baseballmonitor · Member

The Padres is a good pick, Peavy threw awful in the playoffs but I think that was his first playoff start, but I could be wrong about that. Getting Maddux to go with Wells will give them the experience to teach some young talent.
Don't overlook the Cardinals either. Carpenter and Mulder at the top of the rotation is a good one-two punch and Wainwright emerging in the bullpen gives them depth at the end of games.
As for gold gloves, yes they are subjective which makes them questionable. But they do take a lot more into account than fielding percentage becuse there is a lot of stuff in the field that stats can't measure. it seems liek an easy excuse to say that there is stuff stats can't measure but in the field I think it's especially true. For example, there are a lot of times wehre a middle infielder messes up a DP because he doesnt turn it fast enough or gets taken out by the lead runner and gives a throw in the dirt. stuff like this isn't considered an error and it doesnt show up in the stats, but gold glovers don't make those mistakes.

moonraker717 · Senior Member

I agree completely that there is a lot of things stats can't measure in the field, considerably more than any other facet of the game. I was just saying that FP isn't taken into account as an example of why I think GG are just sort of baseless and to the average fan mostly useless other than when the guy walks to the plate and the announcer gets to say "and now batting, 10 time gold glover blah blah"

Situational Lefty · Veteran Member

moonraker717 wrote:
is it just me or are gold gloves the most ridiculous individual award in sports. As long as you win one, until you stop playing you will continue to win them.

Yeah it's pretty much a joke. Guys like Jeter and Ripken kept winning them... Jeter according to defensive studies is a below-average defensive shortstop, and isn't even the best one on his team.

YankeeNation12 · Senior Member

It's important to remember that the Gold Gloves are voted on by managers and coaches in the MLB. This means that guys who watch these players play everyday and understand the game to levels I could never imagine say that these players are the best defenders at their position. I just cant doubt that they know what they are talking about.

As for Jeter, I'm not sure what "defensive studies" means, but he is definetly not below average, thats a joke, and he has a sixth sense for the game that allows him to make plays that other guys just dont. I am biased loving the Yankees and Jeter, but I think you're even more biased thinking there is any way he is "a below-average defensive shortstop"

cubsfan42 · Veteran Member

Yeah, I don't think I would say Jeter is below average by any standard.

Situational Lefty · Veteran Member

Baseball Think Factory

Here's an article that factors in defensive matrics such as zone rating and range factor, the author determines the number of "runs saved" at each position. He has Jeter as the 12th best defensive shortstop... in the American League.

This is not the first study to come to the conclusion that Jeter is below average defensively, especially the last two or three seasons. The general consensus is that he's great because we only see his very best plays on Sportscenter.

Dead Drunk and Naked · Newbie

Since you know for a fact that only one NL West team will go to the playoffs, and they will be eliminated quietly in the first round, you can eliminate four teams from the discussion. The Phillies have the best staff in the Majors, not just the NL. There are no questions about who the starters are, and their worst pitcher is Jamie Moyer, a guy who is as dependable the sun.

Dead Drunk and Naked · Newbie

baseballmonitor wrote:

Don't overlook the Cardinals either. Carpenter and Mulder at the top of the rotation is a good one-two punch and Wainwright emerging in the bullpen gives them depth at the end of games.

You are kidding me right? Mulder was so bad last season(ERA over 7) that he doesn't even have a spot in the rotation right now. He's gotta earn a spot in the rotation. Wainright is slated to be the 4th starter right now, which will make it very tough for him to emerge from the bullpen.

The MAN · Veteran Member

Mulder doesn't have a spot in the rotation right now because he is injured (probably out until the All-Star break).

That injury also effected Mulder last year (hence the ERA over 7).

When healthy, Mulder is a solid pitcher. Go back and look at the stats. Last year was far from the norm.

When he is healthy, Mulder puts up an ERA of around 3.5 and wins 65% of the games he starts.

YankeeNation12 · Senior Member

"I'm the worst?" Jeter said when confronted with the numbers. "I don't think I would say that. But I couldn't really care less what some mathematical equation comes out with." "How do you rank defensive shortstops?" Jeter said. "I don't see how a formula can evaluate how somebody plays.” "You get a strikeout pitcher on the mound as opposed to a ground-ball pitcher, it's going to affect the statistics you use to evaluate defense. So I don't really think you can."

Here's one of these defensive formulas:
SDS = DT + 5PAL + RAL where DT = PO + A + DP - 2E and PAL is

the fielding percentage above the league and RAL is the range factor above the league.

Alright, if you're into believing that a formula like this determines how good of a defender you are, then more power to you. And to be honest, a lot of very educated people in baseball believe this. However, and maybe it's because I'm just not analytical enough, or maybe it's because I love Derek Jeter, but I'm just not buying that the above formula determines how good of a fielder you are.

The MAN · Veteran Member

If I remember correctly, there are 3 or 4 defensive rating formulas trying to establish themselves right now. One of them ranked Jeter above average, the second just a little below average, and the last he was way below average (I could be wrong about what they said. It's been about a year since I read the article).

All I do know is that in the playoffs, when Jeter was out of position and made the relay flip to Jorge Posada against the A's... Jeremy Giambi was safe. I've seen the replay a million times and each time I see it, I see Giambi's foot come down on home plate and then Posada's glove comes around. I am still shocked that the ump blew that call (at least they got it correct later in those Gatorade commercials).

moonraker717 · Senior Member

First before I respond I think it might be wise to move a lot of these posts to a new topic about gold gloves...we are way off topic

But with that said I will continue to be so...

Regardless of whether you have numbers that say a player is above, below or just average my biggest pet peeve about the Gold Gloves is not who it goes to, but the fact that it goes to the same person year after year in a lot of cases. The fact that fielding transcends numbers to a great deal is a BIGGER reason for other guys to earn it than letting one guy sit on it until he retires.

YankeeNation12 · Senior Member

Sometimes they are way off. I remember once Palmeiro won the Gold Glove at first base even though he played less than 30 games at first and DHed the rest of the time